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  • Red

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    Hi guys, don't want to start a shitstorm or anything just a conversation on folks thoughts about the pros and cons on today's military style rifles.

    Everything say from the Cold War on up to today. Lets discuss the M4, FAL, AKM, Tavor, SA80, HK. Lets talk about the pros and cons as you see them of the different platforms.

    Again not intended to start a caliber or MFG war. Just would be interesting to discuss thoughts on different small arms systems currently being employed by armies around the world. Any favorites and why? Any total catastrophes and why? Maybe small arms that are no longer serving that you feel should still be in service. Stoner, M14, Grease gun?

    I dunno just bored and love talking about guns with folks who know about them. Especially if you have first hand experience with any military firearms.

    I know how to type so I tend to get pretty long winded on here. Don't hate just scroll past if you're not interested please. Really would love to read opinions long or short regarding said topic. Especially first hand experiences.

    Thanks fellow firearm enthusiasts
     

    Red

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    I'll start with my thoughts on the M4 I have used in service.

    I have seen a mixture of FN, HK, but mostly Colt M4s in my days. I have very little experience with rifle length as the only time I used an M16A4 was during OSUT.

    So caliber: I feel that the ballistics of the 556 is acceptable for the M4 platfrom, for its intended purposes of course. It does not do much good on anything hiding behind much cover like a brick built window sill or fat enough tree. The 62gr green tip used was pretty good all around. The 855A1 is a whole other animal. That round is a monster. Anyhow back to the M4. The 14.5 in barrel churns out enough velocity out of that little round that it is still respectively fast for such a short barrel. 2950fps if I remember right. With proper training a rifleman can hit center mass man sized targets at 300m no problem and 600m fairly consistently with a good optic and favorable weather. At 600m the wound channel is pretty minimal and shot placement very much counts.

    Velocity is fast enough that after enough training and time behind the carbine, movers were pretty easy to engage within a reasonable distance. Almost no lead from 1-200m depending on tgt rate of movement. Fairly flat shooting and easy to spot trace if going the distance, especially in rain.

    Wounding: Really the most important point I guess is whether our war rifles can kill. In my opinion a well trained rifleman will have no problem dispatching a tgt easily up to 400m then shot placement becomes a bit more important due to ballistics, but at that distance shot placement is even harder so repeatable hits really count. I find it fairly easy to hump a double basic load. Anything bigger would be reducing the soldiers round count, forcing him to hump more to maintain the same count. If we need a harder hitting caliber for whatever reason, DMRs and GP machine gunners are there to do the trick.

    Attachments are mind numbing. I would try to keep mine as light and simple as possible. Single point sling attachment. Lost all the Knights rail covers cause they feel too fat for my small hands. I would use the Knights forward grip which I would tape my laser switch to. Of course on the military rifles we have the IR/VIS lasers which were light with the PEQ4, then heavy with the PEQ2, now back to light with the LA5 which most of our army is rocking these days. Zeroing is so much simpler on the LA5 as opposed to the whole borelight kit you needed for the others. You guys remember those? lol.

    So LA5, an insight taclight and a knights forward grip would usually be the only things I would mount on the rail system. Forward grip mainly so I would not burn my hand on longer engagements. Learnt hard way, and did not like losing dexterity of gloves, though I always kept a set for other tasks as they presented themselves.

    Optics: I only had military experience with an M68 early on in the war, a 4x ACOG with J dot reflex mounted uptop, and a Spectre ELCAN 1-4x. Out of the three.

    I feel the ACOG w/ Jdot was the best glass I used. FOV was wide, triangle reticle with bdc was very intuitive and did not take much training to master. The Jdot made house work easy and the ACOG is built like an Abrams tank. I have seen those things so banged around its incredible, and they retained zero!! Glass was sharp and bright, just cant say enough good things about them. Only used the V reticle though so dont know a thing about the doughnut style etc. Once you know shot placement with that reticle though, you just could not miss. It is worth every cent of the 1k they go for.

    The M68 aimpoint was almost as indestructible but its just your standard red dot sight. Nothing special. A bit big for what it is but overbuilt to take abuse I guess. Anyhow nothing I would spend 400 on today, I would save up for the ACOG.

    The Spectre 1x4, is the fanciest with the most features. It is also the heaviest of the three. It is nice that at the flip of a lever you go from 1x to 4x magnification. That being said it is nice to have one when you know you will be doing house work then going into a big back yard. Think going from hut to ridgeline. Sports both crosshairs and plain RDS, the 2k price point I do not think is worth it. That is just me though. You are very much slower in the house behind the glass until you train yourself up to ensure the proper check weld and then get progressively faster at engaging tgts. It just takes patience and time, having the 4x is worth the effort for me anyway

    I should also mention I have used EOtechs of all sorts with the 65MOA circle. All I can say about that is that nothing is faster for me in the house than those bar none, no matter how much extra training I do with the Elcan. But unless you are using a magnifier, which I never did I limited its used strictly for house work.

    Back to the carbine itself. The gas system leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion. I am not a die hard piston guy but DI really bugs me. If a version of the AR180s gas system could be used I would have my all time favorite battle rifle. Granted carbon build up can be easily taken care of with a little maintenance the fact that all that carbon is just being dumped in the action is just dated and does not help reliability in anyway. There are those that say a little carbon doesn't hurt its just a pain to clean but combine carbon and dust getting swept into the action and mags tend to jam me up anyway. Admittedly this is after firing about 6 mags as fast as I could but a battle rifle should be able to do that without issue. When sealed up though with barrel shroud and ejection port cover closed, it does a fantastic job of keeping crap out. if your rifle is sealed you can walk thru a sand storm and be read to start laying the scunnion at a moments notice without issue.

    Accuracy: Best I have seen out of a standard M4 has been about 2-3 MOA given multiple examples and shooters. 5 shots at 100m on 4x magnification. I think that is acceptable for any war rifle. 62gr green tip isnt known for its accuracy anyway. But in my opinion the carbine is accurate enough. Firing on automatic is seldom used except when we really need to suppress or gain superiority, but up to 25m with a good fighters stance that 750rpm is pretty easy to keep on tgt. I personally would rather have more of a break than a flash hider but I understand the logic of the flash hider on our rifles.

    Fit and Finish: Well its a Colt M4. The gold standard all others are measure up to. Other than the annoying proiiing from the buffer spring, there is not much to say in this regard. Barrels are awesome chrome lined for sustained fire etc. I feel it is still a very potent and relevant battle rifle for our troops. Its reliable and very modular. Being so modular sometimes sucks cause once the grenade launcher gets mounted, plus the sight for the launcher plus rifle sight, tac light, laser, etc, the little M4 can become pretty heavy.

    I read a lot about replacing it with another rifle or upper to a different caliber etc. In my opinion that is just not necessary. What the M4 can not do, there are DMR, SAWS, 240s, etc organic to the standard infantry squad so there is a key for every lock if employed properly.

    This is just me being bored on Halloween night and hoping others chime in with thoughts on their experiences. M14 early Nam guys? M16A1 latter Nam guys? FAL, Tavor, and anything else even from civi versions.
     

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    Red

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    Guess I'll go again. I am bored.....Next up is the L1A1 Fal rifle. I have not had the pleasure of using this rifle in a military setting or trim only civilians versions and very limited at that.

    Known as the right arm of the free world when the commie AK was sweeping the rest of it. The FAL rifle was originally chambered in .280 or somthing like that according to British military wants. However the standard chambering for the rifle as we all know became the 7.62x51 Nato round. This is during a time when the AR15, AK47 and several others were going to an intermidiate battle cartridge, the FAL stayed with the big boy.

    Again I am no engineer or firearms expert, just appreciated the different designs and solutions to the 8 basic cycles of function of a semi auto firearm.

    The FAL, like the AK and AR have a ton of variations and were heavily adopted by Armies other than the U.S. GB led the way with commonweaths all producing their own versions with slight variations on the original design. I believe the Israelis even had a version with a very handsome wood stock configuration.

    I have had very little experience with the FAL other than the civilian versions which vary wildly. For the purposes of this rant I will talk about a Imbel made metric receiver with a Australian Inch parts kit on it. So a franken FAL as they are known.

    The example I had experience with was fairly nice. With standard black pebble furniture and Aussie style flash hider. 20 sumthing inch barrel, carry handle, folding non reciprocating charging handle and a carry handle. Imbel made Brazilian receivers are usually metric and when they have the proper bullet guide cut outs are worth their weight in gold from what I read. Aussie parts depending on how much use they saw are usually quality components as they are usually direct copies of Britain's weapons. Metric magazines used to be a dime a dozen but are hovering around the 35 dollar mark these days. Koreans have jumped into the mag game with several popular firearms including the FAL and you can buy 6 for 50Bucks so something to think about in the future.

    The FAL is unique in that you can tell it was designed in the 50-60s. It is long and unweildly but surprisingly slim. Sights are nothing special with most having single aperture but adjustible for both windage and elevation. Check welds up naturally to the sights and the peep hole is such that aquiring a tgt is very easy.

    Depending on variation most FALs have a BHO feature after the last round, but all have a manually operated one. The Brits made their versions semi auto only with no BHO after last round. Doctrine stating that they felt the action should be closed as much as possible while the soldier reloads. Most every other countries offerings utilize the intended BHO feature and are both semi and full auto.

    A simple fix is to either replace the BHO lever with a standard one or make the missing tab yourself using an old drill bit. Very easy to do and effective.

    Shooting the rifle is fun to say the least. You know you are sending full power rounds down range even with the super long barrel. Flash hider does what it is supposed to do but nothing to blunt recoil. Shoot it rapidly and you are quickly all over the place. There is just no comparision in the amount of hits vs time you get between a FAL and AR.

    Loading is straight forward enough, with the magazine rocked into place AK style. Good practice is to manually have the BHO feature engaged and let it chamber the first round. Reloading using the BLO release or even the non recp CH is not intuitive and will take practice to do quickly. After a sufficient training on use of muscle memory feel will def speed things up on reloads but I dont feel I would ever be as fast as with the AR platform

    Accuracy, well you would think 1-2 MOA given the caliber and length of barrel, but I have found it to be 3-4 on average which by military standards is acceptable. Some are better, some are worse. depends on a lot of factors and there are tons of tips on accurizing the FAL on the web. Strings tend to spread when the barrel heats up.

    Falkland war makes a good case study for the FAL used in combat as both sides used them. Brits used the semi auto only version without BHO and Argentinians used the full auto versions with the original BHO features as per FN original intentions. Good read and case study with one of the more poignant parts being stories of Brits utilizing captured Argentinian weapons in lieu of their own for the full auto capability. Though I have never fired one on full auto I do not think I would hit anything past my first shot as the recoil would have me looking skyward very quickly on auto. Unless having to just send a bunch of rounds to suppress I think semi would be the way to go with this bigun. Not to mention the standard 20rd mags will empty out pretty quick.

    Internals/design: Again no engineer here but I can appreciate the simplicity of the lower FCG. There really is not many moving parts to get messed up or replace and it houses very robust parts. Hammer is wide and thick, springs strong, everything just screams over engineering. The upper is similar with a mass of bolt carrier group slamming home a robust hunk of metal that is the bolt. Not alot going on in the upper and the most noticable at least to me was the lack of clutter in the upper. Besides the BCG and rat tail for the recoil spring there isnt anything in there to get caught up on or debris to get jammed up on. Very clean design IMO. The recoil spring guide or rat tail is a bit odd at first as it extends off the end of the BCG and into a recoil spring located in the buttstock. Similar AR15, though there is a para side folding model but I have no idea how they configured the recoil spring problem.

    Well gents, just another bored night from a firearm hobbyist and of course I cannot cover every detail of the gun as there are entire books dedicated to it, I hope that someone getting into military style rifles gets something out of it. I just like talking about guns. Cheers
     
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    Over the years, I have had military experience with the M16A1, M16A2, GAU-5A, and a Model 604. I also have experience with the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1903, and M1903A3. I have had experience with civilian legal FALs (G1, Imbel, DSA SA58, and Lithgow L1A1). With FALs, the British, Canadian, and Australian models had inch-pattern receivers and the FN licensed models were metric-pattern. All were 7.62x51. I have also had experience with a HK91 G3 clone (PTR-91), a HK93 clone (Century Arm C93 Sporter), an IWI TAVOR (semi-auto), the AKM-47, and the M1A.

    I am a huge fan of the AR platform as many well know. I have just over 40 direct impingement ARs as well as a couple gas piston SIG SAUERs (MCX and 516). There are all in varying configurations based on the intended purpose. Many are clones of military models. I still believe that this platform is the best all-around weapon system being used today. For the most part, it is lightweight and extremely versatile. There is a wide variety of ammunition available for various applications. Optics are quite numerous based on specific requirements. The platform is simple to use and breakdown for cleaning and maintenance. Piston-operated AR-based weapons like the SIGs and HKs are nice in that they tend to be less dirty in comparison to the DI system ARs. There are trade-offs. They are generally heavier and many have proprietary parts, whereas DI system ARs have many interchangeable parts and a wide assortment of parts that are readily available.

    The FAL and FAL-based weapons are hardened "Battle Rifles". I really like this platform as it is robust and delivers an effective round with pretty decent accuracy to about 600M. The down side is that they are heavy and can be cumbersome to carry and wield. You are basically limited to 20-round magazines, although there are 30-round magazines that are available. The platform is also very simple to use, clean, and maintain. Those FALs with the metric receivers are the most common.

    The M1 Garand is a timeless and truly effective weapon. It is accurate and potent with its .30-06 round. It is heavy and you are limited to 8-round enbloc clips, thereby requiring the user to carry several loaded spare enbloc clips. It is a simple weapon to use, but can be a pain to clean and maintain. The same goes for the M14/M1A platform. This platform is iconic as well. It also delivers astounding accuracy, but comes with a price. Loaded 20-round magazines are heavy as is the weapon itself.

    The AKM/AK-47 is a workhorse. It has it pros and cons as well. These are not known for accuracy, but can be somewhat accurate to about 150M. The 7.62x39 round is very effective on human targets. It can also do some damage to hardened targets. These weapons can take a lot of abuse and keep running, but they are not impervious. The can malfunction. They still need to have some degree of cleaning done.

    The HK91 (7.62x51) and HK93 (5.56x45) platform makes for some very robust weapons. The roller-block action works fantastic. The downside to these is that they are heavy and recoil can be an issue, especially on the 7.62x51 model. They are accurate weapons for the most part. They are much better suited for 300M and less. The C93 is not bad on recoil, but is it a bit more that of a standard AR carbine. The 93 is great CQB weapon. The 91 with a 16" barrel can be a great CQB weapon as well. With a longer barrel (20"), it can make for a nice medium range (600M) sniper rifle.

    As for the TAVOR, it is one sexy piece of kit. The balance is superb and the action is smooth. The accuracy is right on par. The long-stroke gas system makes it really nice to shoot. Controls are simple to use and the platform is compact and well suited for CQB as well as general usage. To me, it is the best bullpup platform out there. The fact that it can use any AR-15/M16 magazine is a big plus.

    All in all, what weapon platform a person decides to choose is pretty much up to personal preference. Whatever the platform, that individual has to be comfortable in using it in that they need to become very familiar with its functions and uses. They need to be educated on various accessories and how they apply to various purposes. They need to understand the various types of ammo and their properties as to how they relate to performance and effectiveness on a given target.

    Military firearms that have been used over the past 70+ years are fascinating to learn about and to use. I enjoy having a wide variety of military firearms and their civilian counterparts. I gain a great deal of insight and experience through ownership as I like to learn about various different weapon platforms and shooting them.
     
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    Red

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    Awesome contribution Tackleberry. Got me interested in finding out more about the Tavor. Israeli guns are some of the coolest invented in my opinion. Really want to get my hands on a IWI Galil. I worked with with partner forces that used them and besides the weight complaint, they had nothing but good things to say abou them. I did not get to handle one enough to have any informed opinion on it at all.

    I do like what I read on it though. A milled, "upgraded" AK according to some of the things I read. I am a die hard AK fan so I am super interested. Waiting for the right IWI/IMI one to come along with a built in bipod and hopefully I will have saved enough by then.

    I am torn on the HK battle rifle line up. From G3, and on. Maybe its just me. G3 was made for giants lol.
     
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    Awesome contribution Tackleberry. Got me interested in finding out more about the Tavor. Israeli guns are some of the coolest invented in my opinion. Really want to get my hands on a IWI Galil. I worked with with partner forces that used them and besides the weight complaint, they had nothing but good things to say abou them. I did not get to handle one enough to have any informed opinion on it at all.

    I do like what I read on it though. A milled, "upgraded" AK according to some of the things I read. I am a die hard AK fan so I am super interested. Waiting for the right IWI/IMI one to come along with a built in bipod and hopefully I will have saved enough by then.

    I am torn on the HK battle rifle line up. From G3, and on. Maybe its just me. G3 was made for giants lol.

    The G3 is pretty hefty. It is not for the week or the meek. It can be a handful. It is a very formidable weapon nonetheless.
     

    Red

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    G3 is a sweet hefty battle rifle for sure. I have not handled any civilian variants but got to use an HK G3 in its military configuration during a deployment.

    I found for me personally the ergos just did not fit me well. FAL was easier and more intuitive. Semi follow up shots were easier for me with the G3 than the FAL, but full auto was uncontrollable for me despite the low cyclic rate.

    Like the roller design. Accurate and reliable. Great battle rifle for distance engagements.

    I’d like to own a civilian ptr91 model one day just to have one, but not really in a rush. I still vote FAL over G3 IMO.
     

    Red

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    I think jeeplover has a semi RPD for sale on here. Man that thing is sweet!!!!!
     

    Plinker

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    I've shot a buddy's Tavor.
    Thought the trigger pull really held it back and buddy says it sorta goes with bullpup designs.(????)
    I'm sure in the right hands its attributes are many.

    I know its not exactly comparing apples to apples, but would not buy one since my go-to 16" AR has a nice trigger does pretty good for me at 1/3rd the price.

    Good stuff Red and Tackleberry!
     
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    I've shot a buddy's Tavor.
    Thought the trigger pull really held it back and buddy says it sorta goes with bullpup designs.(????)
    I'm sure in the right hands its attributes are many.

    I know its not exactly comparing apples to apples, but would not buy one since my go-to 16" AR has a nice trigger does pretty good for me at 1/3rd the price.

    Good stuff Red and Tackleberry!

    The trigger on the TAVOR takes some getting use to. Most AR guys are use to aftermarket lightweight triggers. There are lightweight triggers also available for the TAVOR as well. There is a host of aftermarket products available for the TAVOR enabling the user to outfit it as they see fit. The TAVOR is a very stout weapon. I really liked mine while I had it. I would like to get a newer IWI X95 at some point or even a IWI Galil Ace.
     

    Red

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    Friday and bored again. So here we go AK fans. Disclaimer: I am no expert, guru, or otherwise smart on the AK platform except that it is my favorite rifle platform and I love learning more and more about it.

    Volumes can be written about the different variations of Mr. Kalashnikov's rifle, so of course this little review will not be all encompassing and just my personal experiences with various rifles in my travels.

    We can boil it down to the AK47 and the AKM. The AK47 initially being a stamped then milled, then stamped receiver again. Barrel diameter on the original being just a bit thicker and bolt stem a bit shorter I think? At least it is longer the on the AK 103s. Anyway moving on.

    Country of origin being of course Soviet Russia and licensed to Warsaw Pact countries as East vs West build up was intensifying. Unfortunately the U.S. I feel was lagging behind a bit in the small arms dept during the time, ie adopting the M14 as opposed to the FAL the rest of free world was using but I digress. The USSR hit a home run with the AK47 design and whether you argue that it was stolen from the stg44 or influenced by captured German engineers the fact remains that the AK47 in all its forms is a mainstay in the world of modern small arm firepower.

    Military examples I have run into during overseas deployments.
    Russian AK47s and AKMs from both Tula and Izzy factories. A few RPKs as well but that is for another write up. Russian type 1 milled AK47 rifles I encountered were a work of art. Truly beautiful hand fit and finish, heavy cause of the milled receiver and thicker barrel but work of art none the less. Nothing really notable on the inside besides the auto sear and the middle notch actually works for something other than looks. These rifles were laser straight, some in pristine almost unfired condition and some looked like they were dragged behind a humvee for a while.

    All Russian examples regardless of stamped or milled type worked flawlessly thru multiple thousands of rounds that we put thru them. If there was a hiccup it was nailed down to a malfunctioning magazine which would be quickly discarded as there were hundreds lying around.

    We would conduct "foreign weapons training" during which we would take out the captured AK 47s and put them thru their paces and see what we were up against. Russians were the best but we also had a good cache of Chinese versions.

    Ballistics, again no expert and I know this has been beat to death already I am just going by what I have seen. The 762x39 makes short work of shallow single layer cover. Guys hiding behind the typical Iraqi window sill did not have a chance. Windshields, radiators, car doors did not provide any sort of protection it seemed. I know it rarely does for 556 too but bad guys were usually pretty safe behind window sills with single layer brick walls, until a good beat zone was formed or someone on a .50 would open up.

    Tissue damage is pretty impressive from muzzle to max effective range. Where as the 556 has a certain sweet spot, the 762 just punishes tissue. Shatters bones, blows out exit wounds something nasty. All around you just don't want to be tagged by one. Though our plates do a great job of stopping 762 api, our kevlar helmets are another story. Many mistakenly think that they provide the same protection of the SAPI plates put that is just not the case. For the most part the ol kevlar, Mitch or Ops Core do a good job of stopping flak from IDF rounds and RPGs.

    After putting thousands of rounds thru various Russian and Chinese examples on full auto overseas, they still open up cleaner than and AR that you just put a few mags thru lol. I am not a DI hater put the AK piston system keeps the rifle much much cleaner. And though yes eventually you would have to get into the gas system to make sure you maintain longevity of reliability, the AK is not spitting carbon into the action of the rifle and further adding to the carnage already taking place in there. Spitting carbon into the action during a windy, dusty day during a fight is not confidence inspiring, especially when you can noticeably notice the M4 start to slow down during cycling.

    Anyway without being to ascertain a good round count for any of the rifles we could only assume they had all been thru the ringer on top of what we were putting them thru. For the most part bolt lugs and trunnion edges showed no deformities to worry about, rear trunnions never showed any issues. Triggers and actions were silk I assume from being fired so many times already.

    I was in Iraq before they really started to accessorize their rifles so it was purist heaven. All iron sights and thank goodness most of them did not know that they needed to zero the rifle to themselves instead of just the rifle lining up. Some barrels swallowed the bullet tip and some had a very clean tight bore. This is the only reason I remain a die hard CHF chrome lined barrel fan. Until Russia churns out their new AKs in 4150 Fenocite treated barrels I prefer what I have run into.

    Afghanistan is where I got to see everything from museum quality examples to bedazzled mujaheddin lead slingers. Average muj ak had iron sights with a charm on the cleaning rod or somewhere on the rifle. Paki tape on the grip, upper and lower handguard and buttstock. Colors varied wildly. Local CDR or warlord was plastered on the fixed stock versions, and there were more than a few that just took the buttstock off all together and did not replace it with anything.

    In my later tours as opposed to the ones I did early in the war, accessories became more prevalent. The majority were RDS mounted on railed upper handguards. Sometimes I would see some fully railed AKs sporting an RDS and forward hand grip. Ran into the occasional top cover that had the rear sights mounted by the recoil spring tab which I thought was cool cause that let me know right away that the guy knew the advantage of an increased sight radius and probably had his rifle zeroed and did some damage.

    Differences between military war guns and our attainable civilian examples. Preban polytech rifles, Arsenal SLR or SGL I find there to be very minimal differences. Those differences mainly being the markings on the receiver, lack of third hole for auto sear, FCG in general, though tapco g2 triggers do a nice job of mimicking the real deal in semi mode.

    Depending on the builder the barrel is your biggest difference. The parts kit might be a nice bulgy but if mated up to a U.S. made non chrome 4140 barrel, you will just not get the life out of it that you would the military version. Granted most of us will not shoot enough to notice the difference but do a couple of drum dumps from a non chrome lined barrel and I bet you will have taken a good bit of life out of it. For the casual shooter that doesn't do mag dump after mag dump then you'd probably never notice a difference. Plus non chrome lined is supposed to be more accurate than chrome lined though in an AK platform the difference wont likely be too discernible

    Interesting note between military Chinese rifles and preban imported versions. It seems that the majority of Chinese military issue rifles were never threaded where as they were for export versions of them. Anything is possible with AKs of course but the Chinese military versions I have seen overseas did not have threaded barrels on any of them. The prepan ones I have seen here have been threaded. Who knows why? Would like to know if anyone has any insight on that.

    Well that is enough rambling for now, we could go on and on about the AK series and I welcome anyone to join into the discussion and share their thoughts or experiences on the ubiquitous AK 47. Never finished learning. Cheers.
     

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    Red

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    bored again so what can we talk about now? How about the good ol M14 battle rifle.

    Of course we all know it served as the interim battle rifle between the M1 Garand and the M16.

    My experiences with the rifle is limited to the military versions, old style before we widely field the EBR stocks. The war in Afghanistan had just started and someone with some common sense decided that we needed a DMR rifle capable of solid hits from 6m and up.

    What we got were old M14s that were stored who knows where in who knows what with a mixture of walnut and synthetic stocks. They were accurized as far as I could tell with glass bedding and the like to enhance repeatable performance

    Glass in those early days were limited to Leupold 3x9 scops mounted on those awful mounts that screwed into the side of the receiver. Good enough I guess for range applications but not nearly as robust as needed for combat use.

    For some reason we had problems getting reliable 20rd magazines so they were loaded to 18 max. I do not remember the nomenclature of the round used but it was some sort of tgt ammo.

    Sometime mid tour the DMRs got EBR sage stocks which were awesome if only for securely mounting the glass. The 14 in sage seemed a bit heavier than the synthetic stocks we first had but they looked really cool with all those rails and collapsible stock. Now the DMR could mount a taclight and a laser for night ops which was much needed and likely added to the perceived weight of the rifle.

    I personally never saw one jam in combat even in dusty and dirty conditions. For being such a long unweildly rifle, it functioned flawlessly from what I witnessed. The full auto switch was omitted from all the rifles we had. I dont think anyone wanted to fire that musket on auto anyway.

    Though I have been very tempted to splurge and get and M1A and put it in a sage stock, I do not have 3k to kick around for something that I don't have to have. I read and interesting article on the FN FAL and why it was not adopted by the US due to politics and the usual BS procurement process so I would rather invest in a nice FAL which should have been our main battle rifle prior to the M16 and IMO is the better of the two.

    Needless to say the rifle itself was as accurate or more than most shooters put behind it. Anyone carrying one can attest to it being a pain in the butt in the humvee especially in the old stocks. Most guys at the time carried the 14 as a secondary and still had an m4 primary with full load. They just had to hump a bit extra like the MG team, mortars, rocketmen etc. It was fun to see a Vietnam era rifle in the mountains of Afghanistan and in the slums of Iraq. This was early on in the wars and I have not seen any 14s in years now. They have been replaced by the SASS and the SCAR HVY in most units.

    All in all I guess it was a decent rifle in the DMR role and served its purpose until something better replaced it. I am still half tempted to find a nice example that exhibits the original characteristics. Springfield M1A I guess being the gold standard of this rifle, however there are several offerings from Bula, JRA etc that use more original milspec parts in their builts to include bayo lugs and original slimmer walnut stocks.

    So many guns so little money
     

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    SAWMAN

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    Hey American military . . . forget them old M1A's and trying to set them up for the squad level designated marksman.
    Invest in the best. H&K. PSG-1. --- SAWMAN
     

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    Red

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    nice HK. Would be awesome if our procurment system was not so jacked up. I think Knights SASS underbid them by alot too, that and the familiarity of the M4, I doubt it would ever see action in the regular formations. The SASS does have a nice suppresor system that does not add any barrel length too. We are lucky to have magnum rounds in some of the ranks. I guess someone smart made the case for the caliber. Thats for the dedicated sniper system though so not really a DMR thing.

    762 nato will probably always be sufficient for the DMR role. It did well enough for the 700 sniper role for so long that makes sense that its natural transition was to be a DMR and GP machine gun round.

    Id like to see someone write up something on an RPD or Stoner 63, or maybe an M60. I came in too late for the M60 though did see it in heavy use will our allies around the world. The Mk48 is another great machine gun, just a beefed up SAW, except reliable.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Just for clarity gentlemen, the above pic of the PSG is not my gun. I pulled it off the web.
    However . . . I do own a HK 91. I have most all of the extra equipment for that gun including the sight tool,bipod,claw mount,carry handle,extra take down pins,and a couple others.
    I bought most all of the extras at the old Bushmaster/Quality Parts facility in Portland,Maine in the mid 80's. Back then you could simply walk in, get a shopping cart,and cruze the isles of origional parts for several military style weapons. There were some non OEM parts for shotguns there also.
    Back in those days my claw lock (the throw lever cam type) scope base for the gun was about $250. The carry handle was $50 and even the sight adjustment tool was $25'ish. The bipod was about $150 IIRC.
    If you have has a chance to see or use these parts to the HK 91/93 you will understand why so pricy. You could attach and fold out the bipod and jump up onto the rifle with both feet.
    I could load any ammo into the mag and it would feed and extract without a burp. BTW,I have 8 of the origional HK marked mags for the gun. When I bought them they were $22 each.
    With a cheap Bushnell scope this gun would shoot 2" groups at 100yds with several types of handloads. Best of all . . . you could take the claw mount and scope off the gun for storage,reinstall and it would shoot to the same POI. I have never seen another gun that was so good at doing that.
    In about 1982 I was involved in some training with some foreign forces. One group were using the PSG systems. They were scary accurate . . AND FAST . . with their issue weapons. --- SAWMAN
     

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    Red

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    I was born too late sawman lol. Sounds like a place I would have gone window shopping weekly. Never fired a psg or 91 but sounds like they would make excellent DMRs. I’m not familiar with them other than they look like a supped up G3. I wonder what they do to make them more accurate than your average G3? I gotta do some reading on it cause a quick google tells me I’ll never afford one lol
     

    SAWMAN

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    Back when I got my HK91 (new,for $680) there were no G3's on the market. I had a buddy that had one and got to play with his a bit. Loved it. It was more like a finely crafted piece of precission machinery than a battle rifle. German designed and maliciously machined thru and thru.
    The only drawback to this gun is a fluted chamber that is somewhat a PITA to reloaders,although I reload for mine. Actually one more - - -> is ejects the brass farther than any other weapon I have shot.
    I would really like to purchase a quality scope for my gun. A scope that would make the gun proud. Maybe a Heinstoldt or an older Steiner.

    Red, you were borned too late to be able to play with all the good stuff. And you clearly missed the war that was not so much politicslly correct. A war where you could "get to it" and REALLY do your job. --- SAWMAN
     
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