Latest project - wide body 1911 in 460 Rowland

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  • flyandscuba

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    This project started with a base Rock Island wide body 1911 (using P14) type hi-cap mags in .45 ACP. This gun was chosen because the design did not use a ramped barrel - allowing the installation of a Clark Custom or Johnny Rowland conversion kit. However, I wanted to experiment a bit. Having borrowed a .45 chamber reamer from a local gunsmith - I decided to simply ream the stock .45 ACP chamber to .460 Rowland and try to make the creation work WITHOUT a compensator! To do so, I installed a 28 pound recoil spring, extra power firing pin spring, and a 32 pound hammer spring - along with a flat bottom firing pin stop to provide a tougher surface for the recoil to overcome as the pistol cycled. Without a compensator, the slide and barrel needs to remain in lock-up until the bullet exits the bore. These added spring weights and the firing pin stop give it the dwell time necessary to do so. Recoil was no worse to me than my converted Glocks - or even a 10mm Glock 20 - to me. The pistol functioned well with 185 gr bullets as long as only 10 rounds were loaded into the magazine. The heavy 255 gr hard cast loads would not cycle - but nose down into the magazine. I was using stock magazine springs - so I have ordered extra power magazine springs from Wolff in hopes that it will solve the feed problems. Spent cases were ejected about 3 feet away - so I might be able to go with a lesser recoil spring weight. Study of the spent cases reveal no bulging, splitting, or unusual primer character. So, for a first range session - I think this creation was a success... image-418180851.jpg image-61299524.jpg image-3403629659.jpg
     

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    flyandscuba

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    I forgot to add that I did install a Wilson stainless steel full length guiderod and a plastic shock buffer as well. Normally, to convert a 1911 to .460 Rowland -- you have to buy a conversion kit that runs $325-350. My cost for this conversion was about $70 -- and that includes a new set of iron sights that I'm going to install. No need for a compensator will mean that regular holsters for 5" government model 1911s will work!
     

    Django

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    I was looking at one of those Rock Island wide bodies at the LGS. I wish I had the knowledge and skills to do something like this. What are you're impressions of the gun, before you did the modifications?
     

    flyandscuba

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    It's a good basic pistol. The sights (GI type) are poor -- but that is an easy fix. The fit and finish of the pistol is fine -- and the trigger pull isn't bad at all. Even with the 32# hammer spring installed, this one has a 5.5# trigger pull with a crisp break. The grips are poor from a quality standpoint -- but functional. Para Ord P14 grips can be modified to work, so I've read. Para Ord P14 magazines will work as well.

    I picked up mine from SARCO for $439 -- but it looks like they've gone up to $489 now: http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/rockislandm1911widebodyhicap.aspx

    Reaming the barrel wasn't difficult. I did it by hand with a rachet wrench and the Clymer reamer. The oversize flat firing pin stop had to be fitted, but that was accomplished with a stone. Everything else was simple drop in changes (springs & guide rod).
     

    Django

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    That's about the price I saw too. The grips and sights have room for improvement but at the price I was thinking it might be a good entry 1911 to upgrade if the fit and function was halfway decent. I guess some parts might be hard to find for upgrading since its a double stack. I don't know. Thank you for info. I'd be nervous about messing it up trying to do what you did. Koodos!
     

    Sporter

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    Interesting build. I'd like to see some video of this beast in action. I'm very curious about ditching the comp and reliability.

    According to Clark Customs, you have three strikes against you as they warned against using a RIA frame, against using any double stack frame and against not using a comp. You'll probably be fine though as I think they were just in lawsuit prevention mode. Clark recently updated their website and dropped their FAQ on the 460 Rowland conversions. However, the list below of recommended and not recommended models are taken directly from the old website. I went ahead with a double stack conversion any way but the mags ARE a pita.

    Clark Custom lists these as preferred platforms for the conversion:
    Springfield Armory
    Colt Government
    Sig Sauer
    Smith & Wesson
    Dan Wesson
    Norinco
    Remington 1911 R1
    Para Ordnance Expert
    Kimber

    Specific Models this kit is NOT RECOMMENDED FOR.
    Colt Gold Cup/Enchanced
    Para Ordnance P-14
    Metro Arms American Classic
    Tisas ZIG
    IAI (Israeli Arms International)
    Rock Island Armory
    Auto Ordnance
    Taurus
    Llama
    AMT
    Charles Daly
    Essex
    Remington Rand
    Any "GI" 1911 (pre-50s / spot heat treated)


    Seems you've taken all the steps I did except I used a double recoil spring package with a reverse plug from Sprinco. I also found I had to use double high tension mag springs in my double stack Springfield 460 conversion to have reliable feeding under all situations. I understand the Glock conversions have to use double springs as well.

    My Springfield Hi-Cap conversion:
    003_zpsea8ed90e.jpg


    Also, one note about the Para P-14 mags. This is a Mec-Gar P-14 mag in the photo. They sit about .030" lower in the Springfield frame than factory Springfield double stack mags. Notice the excessive gap between the mag base and the frame. My Springfield double stack mags will NOT work in my Para P-14 Black Ops for this reason. I have no idea how they'll fit a RIA but something to look for.

    One weak spot to watch on a double stack 1911 frame is the area where the frame is widened to accommodate the wider magazines. If your gun breaks, this is probably where it will happen:
    1911%20Double%20Stack%20Crack_zpsuwlpd0ee.jpg


    Here's a slo-mo video of my 460 conversion in my new single stack Springfield Loaded. The first round is a Liberty 78 gr +P, the next two rounds are 185 gr 45 Super and the last two rounds are 185 gr 460 Rowland. With the comp, the recoil is reasonable but the 460 definitely pushes me back more than the others. I'm left handed so I'm shooting with my weak hand.
    [video]http://vid806.photobucket.com/albums/yy347/sporter455/460%20Rowland/plus%20P%20vs%2045%20Super%20vs%20460%20Rowland%20 Slomo_zps7nziqnlc.mp4[/video]

    Same video real time:
    [video]http://vid806.photobucket.com/albums/yy347/sporter455/460%20Rowland/45%20ACP%20P%20vs%2045%20Super%20vs%20460%20Rowlan d%20HD_zpsvkkmw85o.mp4[/video]
    The 460 Rowland chamber will shoot 45 ACP +P but I hade reliability issues shooting weaker 45 ACP target ammo.
     
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    flyandscuba

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    In not too concerned about what Clark Custom has to say. This was just an experiment to see what could be done with minimum investment.

    Mark from Dead Eye Luke Holsters converted a single stack Springfield 1911 years ago - without a comp - and used the same spring weight increases and flat firing pin stop years ago.

    His will function with ACP, Super and Rowland loads without any adjustment. As a matter of fact, I've fired his pistol when he mixed up all three loads into the same magazine and I was amazed that it all fed, fired, and ejected without issue.

    I'll continue to play with mine and see if it becomes completely reliable and withstands the punishment of the mighty .460 Rowland ammo over time.

    If so - I'll fire it occasionally and may use it as a woods gun. If not, I'll salvage what pieces parts I can and build a gun with an new single stack frame.
     

    Gun1

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    Interesting build. I'd like to see some video of this beast in action. I'm very curious about ditching the comp and reliability.

    According to Clark Customs, you have three strikes against you as they warned against using a RIA frame, against using any double stack frame and against not using a comp. You'll probably be fine though as I think they were just in lawsuit prevention mode. Clark recently updated their website and dropped their FAQ on the 460 Rowland conversions. However, the list below of recommended and not recommended models are taken directly from the old website. I went ahead with a double stack conversion any way but the mags ARE a pita.

    Clark Custom lists these as preferred platforms for the conversion:
    Springfield Armory
    Colt Government
    Sig Sauer
    Smith & Wesson
    Dan Wesson
    Norinco
    Remington 1911 R1
    Para Ordnance Expert
    Kimber

    Specific Models this kit is NOT RECOMMENDED FOR.
    Colt Gold Cup/Enchanced
    Para Ordnance P-14
    Metro Arms American Classic
    Tisas ZIG
    IAI (Israeli Arms International)
    Rock Island Armory
    Auto Ordnance
    Taurus
    Llama
    AMT
    Charles Daly
    Essex
    Remington Rand
    Any "GI" 1911 (pre-50s / spot heat treated)


    Seems you've taken all the steps I did except I used a double recoil spring package with a reverse plug from Sprinco. I also found I had to use double high tension mag springs in my double stack Springfield 460 conversion to have reliable feeding under all situations. I understand the Glock conversions have to use double springs as well.

    My Springfield Hi-Cap conversion:
    003_zpsea8ed90e.jpg


    Also, one note about the Para P-14 mags. This is a Mec-Gar P-14 mag in the photo. They sit about .030" lower in the Springfield frame than factory Springfield double stack mags. Notice the excessive gap between the mag base and the frame. My Springfield double stack mags will NOT work in my Para P-14 Black Ops for this reason. I have no idea how they'll fit a RIA but something to look for.

    One weak spot to watch on a double stack 1911 frame is the area where the frame is widened to accommodate the wider magazines. If your gun breaks, this is probably where it will happen:
    1911%20Double%20Stack%20Crack_zpsuwlpd0ee.jpg


    Here's a slo-mo video of my 460 conversion in my new single stack Springfield Loaded. The first round is a Liberty 78 gr +P, the next two rounds are 185 gr 45 Super and the last two rounds are 185 gr 460 Rowland. With the comp, the recoil is reasonable but the 460 definitely pushes me back more than the others. I'm left handed so I'm shooting with my weak hand.
    [video]http://vid806.photobucket.com/albums/yy347/sporter455/460%20Rowland/plus%20P%20vs%2045%20Super%20vs%20460%20Rowland%20 Slomo_zps7nziqnlc.mp4[/video]

    Same video real time:
    [video]http://vid806.photobucket.com/albums/yy347/sporter455/460%20Rowland/45%20ACP%20P%20vs%2045%20Super%20vs%20460%20Rowlan d%20HD_zpsvkkmw85o.mp4[/video]
    The 460 Rowland chamber will shoot 45 ACP +P but I hade reliability issues shooting weaker 45 ACP target ammo.

    I have also converted a 2011 to 460 Rowland. However, I have been having FTF problems with mine even though I am using double magazine springs. Are you able to load 14 rounds onto your magazine?
     

    Sporter

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    I could only get 13 in mine with double springs. And that was a struggle without my Maglula loader.
     

    Gun1

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    And you're able to load 13 rounds without any FTF? What kind of mag springs are you using. I think I'm running the same setup as you yet I'm having frequent FTF if I load more than 10 rounds. Are you using Clark's conversion kit?
     

    Gun1

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    This project started with a base Rock Island wide body 1911 (using P14) type hi-cap mags in .45 ACP. This gun was chosen because the design did not use a ramped barrel - allowing the installation of a Clark Custom or Johnny Rowland conversion kit. However, I wanted to experiment a bit. Having borrowed a .45 chamber reamer from a local gunsmith - I decided to simply ream the stock .45 ACP chamber to .460 Rowland and try to make the creation work WITHOUT a compensator! To do so, I installed a 28 pound recoil spring, extra power firing pin spring, and a 32 pound hammer spring - along with a flat bottom firing pin stop to provide a tougher surface for the recoil to overcome as the pistol cycled. Without a compensator, the slide and barrel needs to remain in lock-up until the bullet exits the bore. These added spring weights and the firing pin stop give it the dwell time necessary to do so. Recoil was no worse to me than my converted Glocks - or even a 10mm Glock 20 - to me. The pistol functioned well with 185 gr bullets as long as only 10 rounds were loaded into the magazine. The heavy 255 gr hard cast loads would not cycle - but nose down into the magazine. I was using stock magazine springs - so I have ordered extra power magazine springs from Wolff in hopes that it will solve the feed problems. Spent cases were ejected about 3 feet away - so I might be able to go with a lesser recoil spring weight. Study of the spent cases reveal no bulging, splitting, or unusual primer character. So, for a first range session - I think this creation was a success... View attachment 31283 View attachment 31284 View attachment 31285

    Just curious, have you been able to load more than 10 rounds without using a compensator?
     

    flyandscuba

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    I've got extra power Wolff springs in order - haven't taken it back to the range yet.

    I'm also going to load up some 250gr FMJ loads to see if they work better than the Buffalo Bore 255gr Hard Cast lead loads.
     

    Big Shrek

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    I've got extra power Wolff springs in order - haven't taken it back to the range yet.

    I'm also going to load up some 250gr FMJ loads to see if they work better than the Buffalo Bore 255gr Hard Cast lead loads.

    need some updates on this project :D
     

    Gun1

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    I've got extra power Wolff springs in order - haven't taken it back to the range yet.

    I'm also going to load up some 250gr FMJ loads to see if they work better than the Buffalo Bore 255gr Hard Cast lead loads.

    Just curious, are you able to make it cycle without using any type of compensator? Also, have you tried the 255gr buffalo bore?
     

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